--- Page 1 --- Welcome back to the Boomtown podcast. I'm Cameron Walker, broker owner of Cameron Walker Realty. Today with me is Megan Hines, my agent extraordinaire. Today we're going to talk about Madison versus Huntsville, where I give you the lowdown on Madison—the good, the bad, and the ugly—and Megan lies to you about living in Huntsville. "I only tell the truth, Cameron." Okay. All right. Well, you know, I live in Madison; she lives in Huntsville. We have a little bit of different backgrounds and a little different take on each of them. So, I figured it'd be a good idea to spit back and forth and talk about the benefits, the cons, and maybe even just some assumptions that people have about each city that are or aren't accurate. "And I'm team Huntsville, so I'm going to treat this as if it is a competition." Okay. So, yeah. "All right. So, you're prepared to lose." I hear you. Okay. Well, I'll kick it off. When my wife and I were moving here, we checked out a lot of different areas. I really was drawn towards Owens Crossroads, Southeast Huntsville. I really liked the mountain views and all that. We wound up over in Madison. It's flat as a pancake, but we really enjoyed it there. And over the years, I've really come to enjoy living there. I'm glad the decision we made, but I will say leading into it, I was a little disappointed. I really wanted those views. But the things that have made Madison a home for us are things that, as we've grown as a family and my kids have gotten older, I've gotten older, that I was mellowing out and going into that direction anyway. But I will say it's not an exciting place to live. "Yeah, I definitely think that Huntsville has more character. The downtown has character. It's got these historic buildings that you can walk through. Each neighborhood has a sort of a different architectural style. I would say Huntsville has more front porch culture. And I like to say this is like the southern culture where you sit on your front porch, you talk to your neighbor, you're sipping some tea, hanging out on your front porch enjoying it. And I feel like—I'm going to say this—Madison is a little bit boring." I hear you on that. I would say Madison has a backyard culture, right? And I'll explain that. You know, it's grilling out. It's playing softball or whiffle ball with your kids, playing fetch with the dog, backyard football across three different yards. So, it's a little bit more—I mean, let's just say it. It's a suburb of Huntsville and it's a little bit more of a suburban living. I will say over the last several years, Madison has made a concerted effort to develop some neighborhoods where you do have a little bit more of that front porch, but those things have existed for a hundred years in Huntsville and they're scattered throughout. Whereas in Madison, you're going to have to drive across town to get from one to the other. --- Page 2 --- "Absolutely. I'm also going to say this: I think Huntsville's prettier. Just basically better looking." Okay. I mean, we've got mountain views. I think the neighborhoods, like I said, they have more character. There's more variety. More of Madison is builder-built homes that look very similar from neighborhood to neighborhood. I mean, there are some beautiful neighborhoods in Madison, but for the average consumer at an average price point, I think that Huntsville's cooler looking. Okay, I can see that. I mean, I do think there is more character, especially across the broad spectrum of homes in Huntsville. I think some of that's a benefit. Some of it's actually a little bit of a drawback. Some of those characteristics of some of those older homes aren't so great, right? You've got iron pipes and galvanized pipes and foundation issues. You typically see less of that in Madison; the homes typically are a little newer, don't have some of those legacy issues. But when you're looking at them from the streetscape, they are a little more... you know, I always jokingly tell people like if you have a few too many and Uber home, you might try to walk up to the wrong door because sometimes those houses do look awful similar, but there's areas where there's a lot of variety, too. So, you know, I will say there are areas in Huntsville that are very eclectic. Think on top of Monte Sano, right? You can get up there and have literally a log cabin across the street from a two-story colonial with white columns. You're not going to see that in Madison. "Yeah. I think that Huntsville appeals more to a younger, hipper crowd. That's what I'm going to say right there. I think Madison, with the backyard culture that you're talking about, combined with the top-rated school districts, you're talking about a more suburban family environment." I agree on that suburban family environment. I do say, I will say this, a lot of the clients I've had that I've worked with in Madison have been on the younger end of the spectrum, young adults, young families, and I do think the school system is a big draw, right? It's known well throughout the state and even beyond. And I think that the city and the builders there have kind of targeted that demographic to a certain extent. As things have gotten more expensive, interest rates have gone up, you've seen builders building smaller and smaller houses to keep the prices down and a lot of smaller lots for sure. Right. So, they're—I won't necessarily say they're reducing the cost of construction, but they're delaying the inflated price by making something smaller. And I think a lot of that has been geared towards the younger families, the two-, three-, four-bedroom townhomes. We're seeing more and more of that in Madison. And I think it is to appeal to that younger demographic. "I mean, 10 years ago, there was nothing but land out there. So, you could build these giant lots. And now, I mean, there's still plenty of land, but it's less than it was. So, of course, the lots are going to get a little bit smaller, for sure." --- Page 3 --- And I think a lot of the buildable land that is already part of Madison has kind of been taken, right? So, you're having to see them annex more land to bring it in. Developers are having to pay to get in, you know, there's some fees and stuff like that so that they can join Madison. You've seen Huntsville do the same thing. They're very aggressively annexing land throughout surrounding areas. But, I do agree with you. There was a time where land was not at a premium in Madison. People built some really large homes. They built on multiple-acre lots. There are neighborhoods of multiple-acre lots. Not to say Huntsville doesn't have that, but the vibe's just different between the two. I think that Huntsville's been there longer, so you know, you just have more developed neighborhoods. Sure, bigger trees, you know, just they're more lived in, which gives you that kind of eclectic character feel, but you're right, it does at times give you houses that have been there a while that might need a little work. It's not a neighborhood where everything is an HOA and it's all kept perfect by decree. "Yeah, I think they're both guilty of that in some ways, some form. I agree with you. You know, Huntsville's larger. There's more people there. There's more neighborhoods. So, there's always going to be more of no matter what we do. And there's just a lot different. One neighborhood's very different from the next." Yeah. I would say when I think of Madison, if I'm talking within the city limits of Madison—not everything that has a Madison zip code; that was a whole other challenge—but if I think of the city of Madison, I think of three distinct phases. There's original Madison, that kind of Hughes Road, Sullivan area; older neighborhoods there, older homes, larger lots in many cases. Then there's kind of moving out towards County Line Road, which is over where I live. You're looking at homes anywhere from a day old to 20 years old. More modern architecture, more sameness, right? A little bit. A lot of red brick over there. And then there's south of Interstate 565 where we see a ton of ongoing construction and it's really a sea of neighborhoods. You see a lot of affordable housing down there. A lot of starter homes, a lot of single-level three-bedroom, four-bedroom homes that are 2,000 square feet or less. Really close to the Arsenal, still great school districts, easy to get to work. Virtually nothing to do down there, though, like it is just a sea of neighborhoods until you get up close to, you know, Madison Boulevard. Like, you're not even in an urban area... you could be anywhere in America and be in one of those neighborhoods because your life is the pool in your neighborhood and then your work and then you know that area over there with a few restaurants, but it doesn't, to me, have a true character feel like Huntsville does where I live, which is better. And I'm going to say it depends, right? So the volume of people who reach out to me and they're like, "Hey, I want to be close to work. I want to be in an area with lighted sidewalks so I can run at 5:00 a.m., where I can push the stroller, where I can take the kids to the pool on Saturday." There's millions of those people across the US. "It is a completely functional place to live and it makes a lot of sense logically. But do you—do you fall in love?" --- Page 4 --- I think people do. I really do. I think people love living in those environments. Are there as many of them? I don't know. You know, and the price point's right, too. "Yeah. And the price point long-term is right because you're not buying a house that you're gonna have to fix up. Like I live in a house that was built in the 70s. It's beautiful, but we've had to do so much work. And that's just a house like that is a long-term investment of your time and money. If you love that, you have to love it like you would love your very expensive baby." For sure. And there are parts of Madison that are like that. But I agree with you, by and large, it's a lot more newer construction. A lot younger homes. What they lack in character, they also lack in necessarily long-term maintenance challenges to overcome there. I do think one thing that kind of gets glossed over, because everybody talks about the schools, is they forget the other half of the school coin is the tax coin. "Yeah. But I mean, I'm from California and I look at that as like, "What?" But I mean, I guess it is a little bit more. It's not substantial. Depends on who you ask. If you're coming here from anywhere else on Earth, no. If you're coming to Madison from Huntsville, you'd think that like your whole entire pocketbook's been emptied. They drained your bank account for another $1,500 a year." Gotcha. You know, Owens Crossroads, that's part of Huntsville. "They do." Right. But they have their own taxes. "They do." So that's always been very strange. So I'm including Owens Crossroads in our [discussion] because they're on our side. They're part of Huntsville. "Well, that's cheating, but okay." Is it, really? "Yeah. No, I mean, I get it. They go to Huntsville City Schools. They do pay Huntsville taxes and the Owens Crossroads taxes. Few episodes back I had Craig Poly on, one of the local title attorneys, and he actually addressed that. There's quite a few little—they were originally like their own little pocket cities and then they've been engulfed by Huntsville over the years, but they still have some legacy taxes that are involved. I don't know all the ins and outs of them. I know the numbers, right? That's what's important to me, but I'm important to the buyers I work with. But I do know there's a little bit of legacy of that built into those little townships and it's kind of neat. --- Page 5 --- But when we have people moving here from out of state like I did, my property taxes were significantly higher where I moved here from, right? And I think most people probably experience that. So when they move to Madison, it still seems like a relief, but when you talk to locals, they really do play up the fact that Madison taxes are a little bit higher than everywhere else around here." "Yeah. I mean that's not a—I mean if you don't have children in the schools, that's what you're paying for. It might not make that much sense to you and that's the truth. And the other thing is Madison, there's a lot of traffic out there." Yeah. That's something that cannot be ignored. "I think that's overplayed, really. So I live on practically the furthest from downtown Huntsville you can be in Madison and it's 23 minutes door-to-door for me. But you don't have a typical commute in terms of the time that you commute." No, even during rush hour. "Yeah. So, it's—I'm on the far side of Madison. I don't have to zigzag through neighborhoods. And I think that's where the misconception comes from. If you have to zigzag through a neighborhood and you're behind a school bus in the morning and you're passing two or three elementary schools on your way to the interstate, absolutely. I think the traffic thing is spot on. If you are anywhere else in Madison and you can get to one of the major thoroughfares on either the north side, south side, don't make the mistake of taking Highway 72 after work, you know, it feels like a long drive locally. It's not like if you've been anywhere where there's any number of people, it's really not that bad. It is a little bit of red light to red lights, brake lights the whole way, but, you know, having lived in like Northern Virginia, right? Any one of Route 3, Route 1, anywhere else other than 95 is still worse than 72 and by a far enough margin that you're going to notice it daily." "And it's true that Memorial Parkway can rival 72 at times." Yeah. And that has not to do with the road. It has all to do with the horrible drivers. That is highway—usually it's human error 100%. Road works great as long as nobody messes it up. "The road's great. You have side streets. You get on and off. You can loop around. Like the designers did an amazing job there. Unfortunately, everybody lives in South Huntsville when they're not so great." All the South Huntsville residents that tarnish its reputation. Yeah. Um, so what about in terms of amenities? What do you think about Madison's amenities? --- Page 6 --- "Uh, we come into Huntsville a lot for things for sure. We do take advantage of the amenities there. I will say in our case some of the things we really love are the greenways. We do take advantage of the parks. There's a lot of places to fish. There is some hiking, particularly with Rainbow Mountain there. So, we do that. We love going to the Trash Pandas games. That's big for us. We love that park. And it's super convenient to get to." That's a great because that's part of—that's like south of Interstate 565. Huntsville and Madison like bang heads right there. And is the Trash Pandas Stadium technically in Huntsville or Madison? "Madison. The—yeah. Yeah. Just go read any of the news articles about who paid for what and you'll know it's in Madison. So, for sure. But you know, not even just the park there, right? Like you have the surrounding shopping areas and all that. So, those are areas that we really enjoy and we've taken advantage of. We do enjoy like the neighborhood lifestyle and my kids being able to get on a bike, ride two blocks over to go get their friends, bring them back to our house, disappear all summer. That is a lifestyle I grew up living and I love seeing my kids get to grow up the same way. So I'm not going to say Huntsville doesn't have that, but that's what I'm experiencing in Madison. The other thing I'll say is because Madison is so school-forward, right? My wife's really involved in the school system. She gets out and does a lot of PTA-style events and even stuff that has nothing to do with the PTA but is involved with the schools. We've met a lot of wonderful people through that. We've built some wonderful friendships. Same thing through Little League, stuff like that. So, I will say from that kind of suburban perspective, that's where I'm at in life and that's what we really enjoy and Madison delivers on that. I will say we still come into Huntsville for a lot of things though." "I mean, and don't get the wrong idea. Huntsville is not an urban mecca. It's not like you're going to move here and have like some crazy hipster life. It's still, you know, we're still pretty like a medium-sized city with a lot of neighborhoods and a big family-forward focus. I just think that the Huntsville has a little bit more of an eclectic beat to it. You've got Lowe Mill over here, which has this extremely artistic—you know, it's like artists. It used to be a mill. We've been through it before, but anyways, there are, you know, Huntsville feels more artsy. It has more creativity. It has more live music for sure." Much more. We've got movies in the park at Big Spring Park in the summer. We've got a lot going on. "Yeah." Where you get out of your house and you go and meet your neighbors in public versus the backyard culture of Madison. --- Page 7 --- "For sure. And like I said, I come over for it, right? So, we go to Panoply every year. We now have the RiffRaff Music Festival. I was just on Reddit yesterday and a guy had visited for two days and he could not gush enough about Lowe Mill. Right. And I do think a lot of locals like to overlook these things that we have locally, but I think that's actually a strong point of being in Madison too. It's not stronger than being closer, but again, like I can be at Panoply in 22 minutes, right? So, it's not—you're not removed from those things just because you're in Madison; it's just 10 minutes further drive and everybody has to drive to get to these places around here anyway because our public transit is not all that." "Yeah. No, I mean there's a little bit in Huntsville and there's zero in Madison. So, I mean, you know." Yeah. And that's I feel like that's one of the only big downsides of this area is you can't... you can't public with transit. "Yeah. And I've seen a lot of hubbub about that online recently and I know the city planners, that's something they're really taking to heart and that they're working through." There's a big push. There's a lot of people moving here that that's important for them. "So, yeah. So, I would say that's a ding against both sides is the public transportation. Slightly less so with Huntsville." But, when we talk about things to do in Madison, I do think a lot of the outdoor activities are passed over, right? So there are parks there, there are movies in the park, there are greenways, there are wonderful, beautiful scenery there. It's just a little more flat than it is over in the Huntsville side of things. And I think Huntsville gets a lot of accolades, rightly so, and you've heard me say it on this podcast many a time about the wonderful hiking, biking, kayaking. We don't address that. That's all available in Madison, too, just to a lesser extent. "Yeah, I mean, there are some—there are some cool spots over there, but Huntsville's better with that." I'll say this, objectively better. "Well, for those, for sure. I will say this: I know a lot of people that pack up their car and drive into Huntsville [for] those things. I don't know anybody in Huntsville that drives over to Madison to do their hiking, right?" "Yeah, that's 100%." --- Page 8 --- I will say some of my favorite restaurants are in Madison, even compared against Huntsville. So, I'm going to throw out—I know there's a lot more breweries in Huntsville, but Old Black Bear Brewery, both for the beer and for the burgers, is like top-notch to me in the whole area. "Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's time of the day. But, I do think, uh, Madison does get overlooked a little bit when it comes to the food scene, too. Particularly over the last three or four years, so many new concepts have come into the area. And people have a legacy: 10 years ago, Madison was [just] TGI Fridays, and it's a little more than that now." "Yeah. When I first moved here, it was all chain restaurants out there. And there's still plenty. So, don't worry. If you move to Madison, you can find any chain restaurant that you like, but there have been a lot of concept restaurants and like good ones that get written up nationally in Madison lately." Yep. Absolutely. And there's a lot of experimentation. I will say things tend to come and go if they don't hit right for the area. They tend to close down, but something else comes right in. It's a little different vibe and then that one sticks and then you move on to the next demand, and so people are rising to the occasion and putting some good restaurants out there. "Absolutely. And a really cool thing, too, is there's not long waits for these things. Sure, around the holidays, whatever, right? But generally you can walk in and sit down, or you've got a 10-minute wait for these things. And when I used to live in Northern Virginia, I mean you went anywhere on Friday night, you were an hour and a half if you wanted to eat at a decent time to have dinner rather than 4:30 or 10:30. Here, like 10-15 minutes max, unless it's Mother's Day and it's 30." Yes. And I'm not going out on any of those holidays. Any city. "Um, yeah, I definitely think that we've covered a lot of this. I want to touch on Owens Crossroads one more time because I think that that is like a crown jewel of a place to live around here because it combines the sort of backyard culture of Madison with a lot more style and it's very pretty, but it has all that. It has like the highly rated schools, you know, the safety, the bicycling your kids around, all this, and a really big, beautiful golf course." Yes, for sure. And I think I started off this saying like Owens Crossroads was my target when I moved here. And so, and I have a lot of clients that live over there. I really do love the area. I feel like half the time I spend my workday over there rather than in Madison, right? There is so much to do there. It is a beautiful area. I would say it's priced very comparable to Madison. As you mentioned, the schools are equally as good as anywhere else in North Alabama. And the outdoors are unbeaten. It is cheating to include that, but you are right. It is practically part of Huntsville. I think something that's often overlooked—and I actually had this conversation with somebody that's moving here yesterday—is when you ask what is there to do in Owens --- Page 9 --- Crossroads, particularly if you're talking restaurant shopping, it doesn't look like much. Although month by month there is more. New restaurants, crossroads, and think that there's nothing there if you just stay on the main road. "And then if you just go 5 minutes over into Jones Valley, everything you could ever want [is] right there. And quite frankly, it's an easy drive into downtown, too, and the medical district, all that. Like it is very well hidden from those areas. You feel like you're a world removed because there's a mountain between you and there. It's just those mountains only take five minutes to get over." But that's what you want in your neighborhood. You don't want it to be on the highway. And that's why those neighborhoods are the way they are, is because you can't just drive through them randomly. There's a lot of peace and tranquility in the neighborhoods there. And I will say it's like living on the outskirts of Madison. You're tucked off of a main road. You're not seeing or hearing the traffic. You've got to be going to that neighborhood to wind up there. It's not a pass-through kind of thing, but Owens Crossroads does experience a lot of that. What's cooler there is you are tucked into these little valleys between hills and mountains. And I think you know there are many, many homes that I've sold that you look up in any of the four cardinal directions and you're looking at mountains, trees, what have you. Versus in my neighborhood, you look in any four cardinal directions, you're looking at corn stalks. "Yeah, I like corn stalks." They're pretty. Not as pretty as mountains. "Not as pretty as mountains. Okay. Well, I feel like we have covered it and I feel like it's very clear to everyone watching this that Huntsville is better." Yeah. Well, you know, you're entitled to be wrong, but if you're watching this, check out down in the comments. Let us know which one you think or if there's another suburb that you think should be thrown in the mix. Thank you everybody. "Thanks for watching or listening. You can always catch us on audio on wherever you get your podcast, be it Spotify, Apple, or you can watch our video on YouTube. Really appreciate you guys being here. Ask that you subscribe so we can keep you informed of everything going on here in Huntsville."